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A critique of human logic and "Unfinished Business" a sermon by Herman Hoeh
Fred R. Coulter—April 10, 2021
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Greetings, everyone! Welcome to Sabbath services!
Today is going to be a little different, and I'll tell you why: it goes back 28 years[transcriber's correction] ago to 1993; at that time we just finished the first edition of Lord, What Should I Do?
The one we have now has been improved and updated and little smaller. I was taking the books up to Skip Emerson's house, he lives up on top of the summit between San Jose and Santa Cruz. He had a ranch up there and he raised quail. He had sheep, lamb, kid goats, dogs, cats, the whole thing. He had a big farm up there.
I was driving up there, and he had tried to call me, but he couldn't reach me. When I drove into the parking lot, I got out and was carrying the books—Lord, What Should I Do?—and Skip came out and said: 'Hi, Fred! Guess who is here? Dr. Hoeh!'
I put the books back in the car! I walked over and sure enough Dr. Hoeh and his wife were there. We sat down and ate lunch and talked and so forth. I recall that one time when we had combined services at San Jose and Gilroy for Pentecost that Dr. Hoeh told the people that were meeting there that 'Fred Coulter is a responsible man.'
Well, I had since left, because I resigned (from WCG) in 1979, so we come all the way to 1993, and at that time there was a lot of turmoil and a lot of things going on and the changing of doctrines.
I knew people in Pasadena that would keep me up on it. Anyway, when I got done eating, I wanted to tell Dr. Hoeh this very thing. I stood up and he was seated, and his wife was there, and I put my hand on his shoulder and he looked up, and I said, 'Dr. Hoeh, I want you to know that I'm still responsible.'
I walked away, got in my car, and he left and went to Fresno and he gave a sermon that I have been wanting to get all those 28 years[transcriber's correction] called: Unfinished Business!
So, I had Bonnie Orswell make me a transcript of it, and I appreciate that, she always does good work.
Why is this important? We just finished the Feast of Unleavened Bread and what's the theme of Unleavened Bread? A little leaven leavens the whole thing!
Dr. Hoeh was beginning with different things, and then he says:
Excerpts of "Unfinished Business" by Herman Hoeh (minister of the former WCG until his death)
Theologians are those who are trained in theology do not operate on this premise…
That is trying to understand another person's point of view!
…They write books for each other….
That's what they do!
They explain it to one another. I want you to understand that, because then you will better understand why some things may not seem to be clear.
He's preparing the way! He even made a statement a little later, 'There's one church and one body, and even if there are different understandings and things, why would you go someplace else? Because he's preparing them for what is coming!
The first thing you want to understand is whether you know clearly what it is that you have come to think, on the basis of reading what is in this book called Holy Scripture.
Ironically, he didn't turn to one Scripture in all this message!
I still have my little Bible, by the way. What is important then is also to carefully listen to what is being presented, either verbally or otherwise. Then to examine the evidence. The evidence may or may lie in the Bible.
That can apply to certain things, but not things pertaining to God!
There's nothing objectionable in reason…
- What does the Proverb say? The way of a man is right in His own eyes!
- Is that reason? Yes, it is!
…but we want to be sure that we have, whether from an earlier perspective or a contemporary one, understood that reason is not where the problem is…
That's exactly where the problem is!
…it is the premise from which your reason that you might be sure of.
He had been in the Church a long, long time, since 1947. Think about this:
…Reason is a gift of God….
There it is in black and white! No! What is the gift of God, speaking of our mind? Free moral agency! God doesn't control us like robots.
What does He want to bring that 'only Greek logic'—as he explains—may possibly figure out. In this, he's trying to show himself smarter than Dr. Stavrinides, for those of you who have been in the Church a long time. He was supposed to be the smartest man in Worldwide Church of God.
Here's the problem, which Dr. Hoeh tries to solve with logic and reason.
God is three persons in one person.
The first thrust into the Church to bring the Trinity!
That's why I always concur that the agnostic was correct, that makes no sense! Dr. Stavrinides has said that the Protestants have never understood it correctly….
Even the Catholics don't; they tell you have to believe it on faith!
He has said for the Church—whether I agree with every statement he has made—he has said that 'you cannot logically'—and remember the Greeks are logical…
If that is the case, why did they have so many gods?
…that's one thing they're very conscious of—'it is impossible to think of God as three beings in one being, or three Gods in one God, or three persons in one person.'
…Dr. Stavrinides from his reasoning and logic and Greek background—would say simply is not the way to define even the Trinity doctrine. Certainly the Church could never have accepted the idea that Christ—the Logos, whatever term you chose—arose as a created being before the creation of the angelic world.
So, Dr. Hoeh brings that up as something that the Church actually believed!
…the word trinity means different things to different people….
But that's because…theologians didn't really understand logic…
He's really saying, 'I have logic, I'm higher than anybody else.' We'll see that in a little bit!
…they only had a picture in their mind and didn't realize why agnostics and atheists could see there was something fundamentally wrong.
Well, neither can he!
Now, let's come to Rom. 1; we've covered this, but let's see what happens when you use 'logic' and you really don't use the Word of God! Let's rehearse a some of things:
- God is Truth
- God cannot lie
- His Word is true
- the Gospel is true
- every Word of God is true
- man shall live by every word of God
All of those are basic Scriptures we need to keep in mind.
Romans 1:18: "Indeed, the wrath of God is revealed from heaven…"
As we read this, you will see that this is always ongoing in every civilization, in every generation. Right now today with all the troubles that we're having, we're right there on the slide down.
"…upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the Truth in unrighteousness."
How do you suppress the Truth in unrighteousness? By not rightly dividing the Word of God! You take part of it, reason and explain it, rather than have other Scriptures that you use to put together to explain it.
Verse 19: "Because that which may be known of God is manifest among them, for God has manifested it to them." Especially today in this age with the Bible!
Verse 20: "For the invisible things of Him are perceived from the creation of the world, being understood by the things that were made—both His eternal power and Godhead—so that they are without excuse; because when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God…" (vs 20-21).
Verse 22: "While professing themselves to be the wise ones, they became fools and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed creatures, and creeping things" (vs 22-23)—then sin sets in!
Let's see something important, and why the Scriptures, and Scriptures only, and proper reasoning by thinking with Scriptures!
Luke 10:21: "In the same hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit, and said, 'I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth.'"
We'll talk about how Dr. Hoeh thought he could make three in one work. That's where we're going.
"…that You did hide these things from the wise and intelligent…" (v 21).
- What happens to the wise and intelligent? They don't use the Bible!
- What do they use? Reason, logic!
- Isn't that one of the advanced classes in every university? Logic!
- What do they teach? Greek logic! And other logic from other societies!
"….and did reveal them to babes…. [that's us] …Yes, Father, for it was well pleasing in Your sight to do so" (v 21).
Listen to this, and ask yourself: Was Jesus a separate being from the Father? This is important because this paper/transcript of Herman Hoeh's sermon proposes that they can understand the Trinity by human logic! You will see how silly it really is when we get to it.
Verse 22: "Then He turned to the disciples and said, 'All things were delivered to Me by My Father; and no one knows Who the Son is, except the Father; and Who the Father is, except the Son… [we'll see why in just a little bit] …and the one to whom the Son personally chooses to reveal Him.'"
- Who is He going to reveal it to?
- What are the things that we have learned concerning the Word of God that gives us understanding?
- What do we need to do first of all? We need to repent and understand that our ways don't work!
We need to come to God His way! Not our way, His way! Here's how we do that:
Isa. 55—here's what everyone has to do, it doesn't matter
- who you are
- where you are
- what station in life you are
You have to do it this way; here's the only way: You do not find God by reason!
Now, you can come to understand there has to be a God if you look at the creation and reason properly! But that doesn't tell you anything about God except that you may admit that it required a Creator. Here's what needs to be done in order to have God reveal to you His way!
- not because you've been educated
- not because you're a theologian
- not because you're an evangelist
- not because you hold a high position
Here's what you do:
Isaiah 55:6: "Seek the LORD while He may be found; call upon Him while He is near…. [not upon logic; but God] …Let the wicked forsake his way…" (vs 6-7).
Who is wicked? Most people wouldn't think they're wicked! That's not me, I'm a good person! No! The wicked is anyone who does not keep the commandments of God! And the wicked thoughts that run around in the mind, as we have discussed during Unleavened Bread.
"…and the unrighteous man his thoughts…" (v 7).
- Can an unrighteous man thinking about God understand Who God is? No!
- Can an unrighteous man—though he thinks he's righteous—who has good intelligence, knows the Bible, but doesn't refer to it—come to the knowledge of the Truth because He's able to reason? NO!
Not unless He obeys God! That's that key!
"…and let him return to the LORD, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon" (v 7).
Here's why: All of the intelligent people of the world will never understand!
Verse 8: "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways My ways,' says the LORD."
What did God do—which only He can help you understand and use—so you can have correct thinking from God, so that you can understand?
Verse 9: "'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."
Isa. 28: Here's how God does it. This is why the Bible is so fantastic and wonderful, because in order to understand it, you need to forsake:
- your ways
- your thoughts
- be baptized
- receive the Holy Spirit of God
- study the Word of God.
When you study the Word of God don't get all enamored if there's something you don't understand that you think you can understand, you have to prove it by the Scriptures, the Scriptures!
Here's how it's done; we all know this. We go over and over this again, but we will see that in that message that Dr. Hoeh brought, he did not do this!
Isaiah 28:9: "Whom shall He teach knowledge? And whom shall He make to understand doctrine? Those who are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts."
You start out with the milk of the Word (1-Peter 2). Then you grow in grace and knowledge. You develop understanding. God's Spirit is in you after baptism and the laying on of hands. Then God will lead you in it. He's not going to lead you to all knowledge all at once. That's why he has the whole Bible, because it's going to take a lot of effort. But here's how you do it:
Verse 10: "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, there a little."
This is the Word of God, which is like a sharp two-edged sword (Heb. 4). Sharper than a two-edged sword dividing asunder the spirit, the joints, the marrow and is a discerner and intents of the heart!
Verse 11: "For with stammering lips and foreign tongue He will speak to this people. To whom He said, 'This is the rest He gives to the weary,' and 'This is the refreshing,' yet, they were not willing to hear" (vs 11-12).
- What happens when you don't hear?
- What happens when you don't yield to the Bible?
- What happens when you yield to your own understanding?
Verse 13: "So then, the Word of the LORD was to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken and snared and taken."
- What does that tell you? Human reason will always backfire!
- Do we need anything greater than what's happening in America today to understand that that is so?
Yet, they persist in their own way!
Isaiah 29:11: "And the vision of all has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed…"
People say they can't understand that. True! You can't understand it. Why? Because you've got to obey! That's a very common sense thing. At certain street corners they have stop signs. If you don't stop you're going to get in a wreck. If you obey the law for the stop sign and you stop, you won't have a wreck. But if you don't obey you're going to have a wreck.
"…which they give to one who is learned saying, 'Please read this,' and he says, 'I cannot, for it is sealed'" (v 11).
What if you seal it yourself because you don't read it! This sermon that Dr. Hoeh gave—Unfinished Business—another title would be: Thinker and Thought.
Verse 12: "And the book is delivered to him who is not learned, saying, 'Please read this,' and he says, 'I am not learned.' And the LORD said, 'Because this people draws near Me with their mouth…'" (vs 12-13).
A lot of people profess God! You could go out and do a survey asking:
Are you a Christian? Oh yes, I'm a Christian! Really, what day is today? Saturday! Yes, it's Saturday. The you ask: Why aren't you in Church today?
They would not have a clue!
"…and with their lips honor Me, but their worship of Me is made up of the traditions of men learned by rote, and their fear toward Me is taught by the commandments of men… [that's just the way it is] …therefore, behold, I will proceed to do again a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder, for the wisdom of their wise ones shall perish, and the wisdom of their intelligent ones shall vanish" (vs 13-14),
Doesn't that sound like what we read in Rom. 1 and Luke 10? Yes, it does!
Now, Dr. Hoeh talks about the fact that God—Elohim—is plural, yet, the verb is singular. He can't figure that out; theologians can't figure it out! The Bible tells us and we'll get to that in a bit.
But we have to recognize something that is a puzzlement, because the person that said, "I am the Lord, beside Me there is no other god."
That is true! You find that several places: Deuteronomy and also Isaiah. He do you answer that question? We'll just let it hang there and we'll do it a little later.
That would present a problem if God the Father is a God and Yahweh is the One Who became Jesus Christ or the Word, and He's also aGod.
Because you see, the Church understood that there was an error. The Church correctly understood that the Father did not give the Ten Commandments….
The Father did not give the Ten Commandments at Sinai. The Logos Who became the Son did not give the Ten Commandments at Sinai!….
So, Who gave the Ten Commandments?
…It was the God Who is one Who did. That's what we need to face!
Let's see how God does it; Dr. Hoeh couldn't even figure this one out. Could it be that Dr. Hoeh really didn't study the Bible very much at all? Here it is right here:
Genesis 1:26: "And God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of heaven…'"
Dr. Hoeh couldn't figure out who the "Us" were! If there's one God, was it the Father Who did it? or Was it Yahweh Who did it? It shows that he wasn't studying the Word of God!
What we did not know is how we explain that Yahweh says that 'beside Him there is no other God.' And if He is Logos, or the Son, or the Word, then there can be no other God Who was the Father.
That's a logical statement with the logic of men! But not with God!
Is it possible for the Father and the Son to be one in a way we never understood before? That's the question.
The teaching officially of the Church were that the Father—God Almighty—and the Logos, the Son Jesus Christ are one God!….
Why do we say that? Because the word for God is a plural noun! But the verb is singular. They argue over that, rather than look in the Scriptures to find out what is.
…That has always been the teaching of the Church.
Now, look what happens if you have one God the Father, one Lord Jesus Christ, each a cooperative eternal independent separate spirit; marvelous harmony. But then you read in Scripture that some of you have the Holy Spirit of God that comes from the Father. Then you read that you have the Spirit of Christ in you.
How do you answer that? It's in the Bible! The answer is in the Bible! So, we'll answer it right now: How is that possible?
When you have logic based upon human thought and you don't come to the Scriptures to answer the question by God's revelation, you'll never know! You will always wonder!
Romans 8:14: "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God. Now, you have not received a spirit of bondage again unto fear, but you have received the Spirit of sonship, whereby we call out, 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit itself bears witness conjointly with our own spirit, testifying that we are the children of God. Now, if we are children, we are also heirs—truly, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer together with Him, so that we may also be glorified together with Him" (vs 14-17).
Let's see about the Spirit of God; v 10: "But if Christ be within you…" Dr. Hoeh sets up a false premise:
…do some of you have the Spirit of Christ and some of you have the Spirit of the Father?
Verse 10: "But if Christ be within you the body is indeed dead because of sin; however, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11: Now, if the Spirit of Him Who raised Jesus from the dead… [Whose Spirit is that? From the Father!] …is dwelling within you" (vs 10-11).
So, we have two: the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father! That's how you answer it. It's one Spirit with two parts! Let's see how that is.
John 14—Jesus is talking about the Holy Spirit, so is it the Spirit of Christ? or the Spirit or the Father? or Both? We'll see!
John 14:23: "Jesus answered and said to him, 'If anyone loves Me, he will keep My Word; and My Father will love him, and We…'"—Who? The Father and the Son! We means there are two individuals!
Jonathan is my son. I have three other living children. They bear the name Coulter. Coulter is one family. Now, he's married and has children, David is married and has children, Rachelle is married but received another name at marriage: Alexander.
When we're resurrected and the marriage to Christ occurs, what happens? We get a new name! Isn't that what it says? Yes! It says it right there in Rev. 3.
"…We will come to him and make Our abode with him" (v 23).
So, the answer to the question, which Spirit do you have of the Father? or of the Son? The One Spirit has two parts:
- from the Father as a begettal to be the begotten son of God the Father
- the Spirit of Christ so you can develop the mind of Christ
Had Dr. Hoeh used the Bible to understand it, he would have gotten the answer. But he's using logic, and human logic can never find God except to know that there's a Creator.
(break)
Let's see how Dr. Hoeh resolved the problem with human logic of having three in one being God. But before we get there, Steve brought up something very interesting concerning human logic: That if you don't do it with God's Word then you're going to end up with your own thoughts!
Jer. 17—we will see how this applies to everything that Dr. Hoeh did. I'm going to have this put online so you can download it and you can see every word that Dr. Hoeh spoke.
Jeremiah 17:5: "Thus says the LORD, 'Cursed is the man who trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the LORD.'"
If you don't consult with the Word of God the way that you should, what is that if you've been in the Church for years and years? You're departing from God!
Verse 7: "Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD and whose hope is the LORD."
Now, here in v 9 is what will happen if you don't trust in the Lord. Then we'll add another thing on top of that to make some of the dumbest reasoning sound logical:
Verse 9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?"
That will enter into your logic, especially if you have a goal that you're reaching for, that you want to prove. Rather than letting the Word of God prove what it says. See the difference with that? You have the let the Word of God prove what is right!
Here's another catch, and never forget this; v 10: "I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give to each man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings." Remember, that always is working!
Now let's add in one more factor to logic, and this is always working, also. You add that to all the logic that comes along:
Ephesians 2:1: "Now, you were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you walked in times past according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air…" (vs 1-2).
Who is that? Satan the devil! He is there to put it into the hearts of people what he wants to, what God will allow. Remember what happened with Judas Iscariot? Satan put it into his heart and then later possessed him!
I don't know if you can apply that directly to Dr. Hoeh or not, but Satan is certainly:
"…the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now working within the children of disobedience; among whom also we all once had our conduct in the lusts of our flesh, doing the things willed by the flesh and by the mind… [willed, mind will; that's what human logic is] …and were by nature the children of wrath, even as the rest of the world" (vs 2-3).
Now let's see how Dr. Hoeh solves the problem and what he did. He goes back and talks about how he was raised up in a German home and had a German Bible and so forth.
I asked the question of my mother, once: If Jesus Christ is a person, why would one ever call Him a Word?….
He's called the Word, not a Word!
…I know some of us are wordy, but that's not the point. Why would John say, 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was in the very presence of God and the Word was Divine…
Let's go to John 1:1 and read it. Notice what Dr. Hoeh did. He changed it! Is that deceitful?
John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." He changed that!
Now, Mr. Armstrong thought on the basis of what Protestants were saying that that meant the Word was a Spokesperson for the Father. You've heard that, that's nothing new. That is the Word was the Spokesperson like the Prime Minister, the Father, the Almighty was like the king.
The Word was therefore seen as the Speaker or the Spokesperson….
Now, that's essentially true!
…Here was an error that none of us had ever adequately analyzed. We assumed that the Greek word meant what often some commentator said, which means that they didn't understand either that this word means a person who speaks. But it doesn't mean that at all.
Now we're reasoning in circles and notice where we're coming to:
Utter and Utterance
If the speaker, the one who speaks words, who utters, it would be like in English if we were to give a translation I would speak with Dr. Stavrinides to meet it on direct translation. He said, 'Word could probably be best and simply stated in English as utterance!
The Word was the utterance of God! Not a separate being and He was not God!
If there was an utterance, we expect that there was an 'utterer.' Do you know what an 'utterer' is? The one who gives the utter! But utterer and utterance are two different words. One is the speaker and the other is what is spoken….
So now, Jesus just represents spoken words!
If God is one…
And that's what he's trying to prove! Not like one family or group composed of many people, but God is one—singular:
…and God most certainly thinks, and God most certainly utters, we also discover that what God utters is also Divine….
All of this is logic! Human logic! Now, let's see how this translates into his interpretation of John 1:1; he says:
…Let us translate it correctly:
This is about as false as you can be!
John 1:1: In the beginning was Utterance… [what God speaks] …and the Utterance was with God…
In his brain!
…and this Utterance… [what God speaks] …is Divine….
It should be translated Divine….
Instead of God!
In other words, 'Theos' means Divinity or Divine. It is at the level of the Divine.
And here he repeats it again:
In the beginning was Utterance, and this Utterance was with God and this Utterance was Divine.
So, you have three in one! Do you follow that logic? He says it again:
God is one….
He phrases it a little differently
…He is thinker and He is thought. He is also spirit; He is not matter. Now we're beginning to see something.
Let's understand this: You can never understand God by human logic! You might be able to understand that someone had to create it, but you can't understand that Someone Who created it by human logic!
You cannot identify yourself and know who you are without being both thinker and thought…
More logic!
…or have the memory of your life. This is a very significant thing.
God is both Thinker and Thought! As Thinker, He is Father; as Thought He is Son!
- In what sense is God Father? In the sense that He is Thinker!
- In what sense is He Son? In the sense that He is Thought!
Same person, not two!
I imagine that when he was down in Fresno speaking this, they were all scratching their heads wondering what was going on!
But God is Thinker and God is Thought, and God is one.
Darlene went to Stanford and took logic. That's how they would do it. Did they ever discover God? No! Did they think about Him, talk about Him? Once in a while? Okay! Then Dr. Hoeh carries it one step further:
And you are thinker and you are thought, and you are one. That's why in part you are an image of God inwardly….
This is why God cannot be construed as only Father and not Son, as only Thinker and not Thought. It is impossible for God to be Father and not Son, Thinker and not Thought. That's the issue of what Logos is.
Notice what he does in Gen. 1; now he moves from two to three, the Holy Spirit.
You know in Gen. 1 it says that "God created the heavens and the earth." Then we read about the Spirit of God moving something, doing something. Then we read that God said or uttered. So, by the time you are in the third verse of Genesis, chapter 1, you are introduced to God, the Father—functioning as Father. You were introduced to the Spirit of God, the mover—Holy Spirit, and you were introduced to saying or Utterance or Logos.
That opened the door for the Trinity!
Think about that, and you will see that much of what we are saying today begins to make sense. If…
Notice, he's telling them 'you've got to change your thinking!
…you really stop with the words father and son and don't give some further explanation, it's no wonder that the Church had difficulty in perceiving the oneness of God.
In this sense, in the one God there is. The name of the one God involves a name—the Eternal. But now let's take note of why it is the Son. In a sense, a son proceeds from the father. In this sense, the Logos has always proceeded from God the Father.
God as Thinker has always been thinking. There never was a time when He had not thought. You may not comprehend that, but you try to figure out what happens if there was a time when God couldn't think.
See how he's doing crazy things in circles! No wonder the Church got all mixed up! Remember what we covered about how God dealt with people, especially the enemy? He confused them! There is right here: confusion!
If God has always been thinking, His thought has always been in production, shall we say. So, the Son has always been coming forth from the Father eternally, because God has always been thinking.
This is how it is possible for the Son to be eternal. Eternal thought! God has never ever been unthinking, both in the, shall we say, the attitudinal sense, but I am thinking in the terms of the literal sense.
Notice what they say; they always say this of the Trinity:
We cannot comprehend fully, but we can comprehend the logic…
'Reason and logic are a gift from God.' NO! Free moral agency is the gift from God! How you think is another story.
…that if God at one time never thought. Then how do we answer why afterwards He began to think. That does not answer the question. That would be simply illogical!
Greek logic led to this! This is not a New Testament revelation!….
Human logic!
This is, in fact, a result of the Greeks thinking about problems. Or to put it this way, to get away from the Greek so we don't blame them for too many things.
Then he says that from the time that Jesus was born had all of His thoughts that He had before. How could He do that if He was not a person? But He didn't! what does it say about Jesus in Isa. 50. How did He learn? He wasn't taught by the rabbis! Here's the prophecy of it.
Now, there are times when Lord God refers to the One Who is Father. That's not hard to understand if you realize that when Jesus was on earth the Father was still in heaven and He was Lord of heaven and earth. That's what Jesus said!
Jesus as a child was not Lord of heaven and earth. He had to give up being God (Philip. 2). He emptied Himself and became like a man, a servant. So, here is how Jesus learned:
Isaiah 50:4: "The Lord GOD has given Me the tongue of the learned…"
He could not have had all the memory that He had while He was God the day He was born. Otherwise, He didn't empty Himself.
"…to know to help the weary with a word. He awakens Me morning by morning, He awakens My ear to hear as one being taught" (v 4).
That's how He was taught, "…morning by morning…" God would wake Him up and communicate with Him.
Verse 5: "The Lord GOD has opened My ear, and I was not rebellious, nor turned away backwards."
Here's something that happens often in Isaiah; it goes from His being a child to when He was being scourged without any transition.
Why was He called Logos? Because He was sent here to do what?
John 12:44: "Then Jesus called out and said, 'The one who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him Who sent Me. And the one who sees Me sees Him Who sent Me" (vs 44-45). Two different beings, but identical!
Verse 46: "I have come as a light into the world so that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness. But if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. The one who rejects Me and does not receive My words has one who judges him; the Word, which I have spoken…" (vs 46-48).
If He is only the thought how can He be a being to speak? Can't!
"…that shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken from Myself; but the Father, Who sent Me, gave Me commandment Himself, what I should say and what I should speak" (vs 48-49).
This has to be a separate being to do that! Otherwise it's another being speaking if the Father is the One Who is giving the 'utterance.' So, this disproves it.
This shows two separate individuals; John 5:17: "But Jesus answered them…" 'The Father is thinking, and I'm thinking, too.'
"…'My Father is working until now, and I work'" (v 17).
Verse 19: "Therefore, Jesus answered and said to them, 'Truly, truly I say to you, the Son has no power to do anything of Himself…'"
He's referring to Himself, so He has to be a separate being! He cannot be just a thought! He cannot be an utterance that is Divine.
"…but only what He sees the Father do…." (v 19)—also proving He's a separate being! Can an utterance see what you're doing?
I'm speaking words right here, do those words see what I'm doing? No!
"…For whatever He does, these things the Son also does in the same manner" (v 19)—because they are one!
Two separate beings thinking alike, acting alike, speaking the same words. Just like when you see a man and his son that looks just like him.
Verse 20: "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him everything that He Himself is doing…."
Are you going to show your thoughts what you are doing? NO!
Verse 21: "For even as the Father raises the dead and gives life, in the same way also, the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son so that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father Who sent Him" (vs 21-23).
Verse 30: "I have no power to do anything of Myself… ['I' a separate person] …but as I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just because I do not seek My own will…"
Stop and think about that! Do your thoughts have a separate will from you as a person? No! Jesus had His own will; free moral agency! He had to do always what the Father said. He said, 'I always do what the Father says.' Choice! Likewise with us!
Verse 30: "I have no power to do anything of Myself, but as I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just because I do not seek My own will…"
That's in relationship to other things and other people. Do thoughts judge other people separately? No!
"…but the will of the Father Who sent Me" (v 30).
We've covered this in messages a short time back referring to the birth of Jesus: The Birth of Jesus Christ #s 1 & 2. It's amazing how many different people have different interpretations of what this means:
John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
When you look at it in the Greek—'ho logos en pros ton theon'—it's toward God, not in God! To be face-to-face is 'prosopon' So, He was toward God, separate individual.
"…and the Word was God." Everyone looks at that in the Greek and says that there is not a definite article for God, referring to the Word. Why is there not a definite article there?
The Jehovah Witnesses like to say, 'a god'—with a lower case 'g'! Why would there be no definite article there? Because the definite article is used "…with God…" and it is literally with the God!
So, if the Word was the God that would make one person. So, there's no definite article there to show that He was God with everything that God is as God is, that God Who He was with was.
Verse 14: "And the Word became flesh…"
Why was He made flesh. He was not a separate spirit—which Dr. Hoeh says—and the 'utterance' was that which came into the womb of the virgin Mary. That's not what happened!
What did the angel say? The power of the Holy Spirit shall come upon you—the power of the Highest: God the Father—and that which is being conceived in you shall be called the Son of God!
That's how Jesus was made flesh. But what did He have to do to be made flesh? He had to give up everything as God to be human! That goes clear back to Deut. 18:15; a separate individual.
How could He be a separate individual and be one of three in God? Couldn't be!
"…and tabernacled among us (and we ourselves beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten with the Father), full of grace and truth" (v 14).
What did John call Him? Verse 29: "…'Behold the Lamb of God…'" Referring to the fact that He was to be the sacrifice for all mankind! He's called a Lamb!
Was He a lamb walking around because he said He was the Lamb? No! That was the meaning of what His life would be, and what His sacrifice would be!
"…Who takes away the sin of the world" (v 29
Let's answer the question about: 'Let Us make man in Our likeness.'
He made them male and female, but He started with a man. Then took one of his ribs and made a woman. Almost every reference to women or woman in ever language contains 'man' because that's where she came from. That's not to put her down or make her less. That's necessary so they will be producing children.
John 17:1: "Jesus spoke these words, and lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, 'Father…'"
If He's the 'utterance' of God, then this has to be God the Father talking to Himself. A separate individual!
"…'Father, the hour has come; glorify Your own Son…'… [separate individual] …so that Your Son may also glorify You, since You have given Him authority over all flesh, in order that He may give eternal life to all whom You have given Him" (vs 1-2). Back to where we were in John 14:
- the Spirit of Life
- the Spirit of the Father
Together the two parts of the one Holy Spirit!
You have that today, look at the car you're driving with gasoline. If you're driving an electric car there are two parts to electricity: positive and negative, but it's still electricity. Gasoline, you may more than one substance in the gasoline that you're putting into your tank: one is fuel to burn, another one to make it burn clean, another to reduce carbon, etc., in the one gasoline that you're putting in there.
Verse 3: "For this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God… [which He was at the time that Jesus was still in the flesh] …and Jesus Christ, Whom You did send. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work that You gave Me to do" (vs 3-4).
- Can a 'thought' do work?
- Can an 'utterance' accomplish something because it said?
- NO!
Verse 5: "And now, Father, glorify Me with Your own self, with the glory that I had with You before the world existed." Showing that He had to give that up to become a human being!
Verse 17: "Sanctify them in Your Truth; Your Word is the Truth." That's why He was called the Word, because He brought the Truth of God!
Verse 18: "Even as You did send Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world." All separate human being, the twelve apostles going into the world!
Verse 19: "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, so that they also may be sanctified in Your Truth. I do not pray for these only, but also for those who shall believe in Me through their word" (vs 19-20). That's all the way down continuously through the whole life of the Church!
Verse 21: "That they all may be one, even as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You…"
That is, they have the same Spirit, the power of God. God has power of His Spirit. Christ has power of His Spirit. The same Spirit working together!
"…that they also may be one in Us…" (v 21). That's the answer to Gen. 1:26! Not the angels, but US—Christ and the Father!
"…in order that the world may believe that You did send Me" (v 21).
I know that this was a little tedious! I know that going through this was an unusual thing, but I was very happy to be able to get the transcript.
Remember to prove all things by the Word of God and don't rely on human logic to come to the knowledge of God!
Scriptural References:
- Romans 1:18-23
- Luke 10:21-22
- Isaiah 55:6-9
- Isaiah 28:9-13
- Isaiah 29:11-14
- Genesis 1:26
- Romans 8:14-17, 10-11
- John 14:23
- Jeremiah 17:5, 7, 9-10
- Ephesians 2:1-3
- John 1:1
- Isaiah 50:4-5
- John 12:44-49
- John 5:17, 19-23, 30
- John 1:1, 14, 29
- John 17:1-5, 17-21
Scriptures referenced, not quoted:
- 1 Peter 2
- Hebrews 4
- Revelation 3
- Genesis 1
- Philippians 2
- Deuteronomy 18:15
Also referenced:
- Book: Lord, What Should I Do? by Fred R. Coulter
- Messages:
- Unfinished Business by Herman Hoeh (transcript and audio found at truthofGod.org)
- The Birth of Jesus Christ #s 1 & 2
FRC:bo
Transcribed: 4/14/21
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